Pedal Sets

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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby RS-60 mark » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:18 am

SpyderMike wrote:By the way, the clutch is rather soft...it works fine, but the clutch action is easy and I need most of the stroke to actuate it. I guess one thing I need to do is verify the free stroke at the actuation arm. But even when I get to the point of actuation, there is a soft feel. Not sure how else to describe it.


I agree with Danny (no surprise). I have had the same symptom that sounds like yours regarding "pedal feel" of the clutch. Early on (15 years ago +/-) my clutch would periodically seem to push soft and then take-up late in the stroke. It got more and more frequent until one day I was on the flatbed tow truck home because the hydraulics stopped working altogether. I replaced the Master cylinder with another Girling style one (like the one replaced). In the process, I noticed that the existing fluid was black, but didn't give it a second thought since the fluid was all flushed out during the course of MC replacement.

A few years later, that uneasy feeling of squishy clutch pedal returned. I now knew the problem was rooted to the MC and blamed the return of the problem on my using a "cheap Chinese junk knock-off" of the Girling MC. So again, I replaced the MC (with another Chinese knock-off of the Girling, hoping for better luck this time). In the process, I again noticed the the fluid was black. Hmmm, I thought; I wondered if the plunger in the aluminum bore of the MC was wearing the aluminum into a dust that could be settling into the MC fluid intake port and clogging it?

I found that you could buy stainless steel sleeved MC bores which I ignorantly guessed were for the purpose of eliminating my imaginary wear/dust problem, but since I had already bought the replacement MC I installed it with the intention of keeping an eye on it.

Now, EVERY year, I unscrew the cap on the MC and look if I can see the bottom of the reservoir. Almost every year, it is too black to see the bottom, and it is never "clear". Regardless of "visibility", I bleed the MC through the Slave religiously every year. Once the fluid starts bleeding clear, I pump another 5-6 MC reservoir fulls, just to be sure. Somewhere in the process, when I can see the bottom of the reservoir again, I take a Q-tip and swab the bottom of the reservoir and fluid intake port area to get any accumulated sludge mixed into the fluid so that it can get pushed out during bleeding.

Doing this every year, I have never had the problem again.

Maybe I've been just chasing my own self-imposed hocus-pocus all this time. On the other hand, I haven't had to flatbed home without a clutch since then.
Last edited by RS-60 mark on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby RS-60 mark » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:51 am

SpyderMike wrote:Then I need to see about the rod end - to see if I can come up with a solution that gives me more stroke. Otherwise, I suppose I could enlarge the M/C to push more fluid with the reduced stroke.


Yes, loose mechanical connections between your pedal and clutch MC actuation will "use up" some pedal stroke in order to pick up the mechanical slack. But do not increase the MC bore to compensate for less pedal stroke!

I used that mistaken logic on my second MC, and installed a 3/4 bore (more is better, right?). Wrong!. You will need a much younger man's left leg to hold that clutch pedal down for the period of a stop light. Your left leg will be reduced to quivering jelly after only a short stint of stop and go traffic. I have a stage 2 clutch, so maybe it is stiffer to actuate, but the 3/4 bore was miserable. Plus, "over stroking" the clutch can damage it.

Stick with the 5/8 MC, and clean up the mechanical slop. Make sure you have 1/8 - 3/16 free-play on the transmission/clutch throwout arm before the throwout bearing engages the clutch and you should be good-to-go.

PS: More directly related to the "pedal sets" subject of this thread: I have Neal pedals. They are the same as the CNC pedals, as previously mentioned.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby RS-60 mark » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:46 pm

A note about the Neal / CNC brake and clutch pedal mounts: The two holes for attaching the MC to the pedal mount align in north/south pattern. That's fine for Girling and most aftermarket Master Cylinders for the clutch. But, the standard VW brake Master Cylinders have a east/west mounting hole alignment. So, if you have an existing VW Master Cylinder that you intend to reuse, then a little adapter plate for mounting needs to be concocted.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby SpyderMike » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:50 pm

Thanks for relating your experience. I will forego the 3/4" M/C as an option.

The car has been sitting for nearly 16 years. I will be diligently going through the fuel, brake, clutch and pedal systems. I have no problem replacing all of it. It will be interesting to see what shape it is in. I do need to think about a better solution to the clutch pedal heim joint...I am going to have to think about that one. It works fine, just a bit of a longer stroke.

I know that CNC makes an adapter for the typical master cylinder vertical attachments to VW's horizontals - P/N 1460.

I am going to need to get rid of the plunger style ParkLock too. It seems jammed open. I remember never feeling quite comfortable that it was doing what it was supposed to. Is anyone using a hydraulic valve lock for parking? I have a left over one from the airplane and it is a basic quarter turn valve.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby DannyP » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:05 am

Thanks, Mark. We are almost always on the same page!

Absolutely 5/8" MC, unless your pedal ratio is changed drastically. I know there is a formula to figure all that stuff out.

The slave can be unscrewed(to disassemble) and cleaned fairly easily, although mine now has some plier marks on it LOL. Two o-rings inside that may need replacing.

The source of the blackening fluid must be the steel, aluminum, and water-absorbed brake fluid combo.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby RS-60 mark » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:36 am

SpyderMike wrote:I am going to need to get rid of the plunger style ParkLock too. It seems jammed open. I remember never feeling quite comfortable that it was doing what it was supposed to. Is anyone using a hydraulic valve lock for parking? I have a left over one from the airplane and it is a basic quarter turn valve.


NO on the Park Lock!!
Once again, if there is a chance to get it screwed up: I've been there, done that. :(

So, when I built my car it turned out that I needed to mount my rear VW drum brake backing plates up-side-down (don't ask why). That meant that the normal e-brake layout with cables and cockpit lever were not an option. In a stroke of brilliance I went the hydraulic Park Lock route. I found that:

A. The Park Lock will sometimes simply "self release". Fortunately, I discovered this while I just happened to be standing next to the car when it started rolling away by itself and was able to catch it!

B. The Park Lock will sometimes get stuck and NEVER release. The first time I discovered this I was 30 miles from home at an In N Out. No matter what I did, I could not get it to release. I cracked open a rear brake bleeder to release pressure and the car would roll. But the next time I stepped on the brake the pressure reset. I drove home 30 miles with the bleeder cracked, trying never to hit the brakes and hoping to get home before running out of fluid. [-X

Somewhere during my Park Lock era I thought I simply had a defective Park Lock, so I replaced it. The real problem is I had a defective stroke of brilliance when I came up with the Park Lock "solution". Ultimately, I removed the Park Lock and plumbing altogether. Until I could come up with a better idea, I tossed a short stub of wood 4X4 fence post behind the seat to use as a wheel chock if I felt parking in gear would be insufficient to hold the car. As it turns out, I've been carrying the wood chunk ever since, for some 16 years.

Bottom line: Don't go the Park Lock route.

edit: PS -- The Park Lock has come up before on spyderclub. Type "park lock" in the Search box, for more commentary.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby egrant5329 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:17 am

I had park lock on mine from 1986 until a couple years ago and never had a problem. I needed to replace brake lines, so I took the opportunity to finally install my hand brake and eliminated my park lock. I liked having it and only removed it because of the scary stories about them on the list serve. I like the idea of a 1/4 turn line lock better than the old push down type.

I have heard of people using something like this https://www.mcmaster.com/4715k11 It isn't as small and unobtrusive as the button locks, but it shouldn't ever get stuck.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby SpyderMike » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:30 am

I looked at the one I have and it is designed for two lines in/out. The same company makes a single line one that looks interesting:

http://www.matcomfg.com/PARKINGBRAKEVAL ... 580-8.html

I think I can insert it in the existing parklock location fairly easily. But I like the pricing and looks of the McMaster part bit more. Thanks for the link.

BTW, the Wilwood single pedals are rising up on the pedal set possible solution list. I need to make some measurements when near the car next:

https://www.wilwood.com/Pedals/PedalPro ... =340-13833
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby dlearl476 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:15 pm

After going round and round with all sorts of set-ups, I think I'm going to bite the bullet and buy a Vintage Spyder pedal set up. https://www.vintagespyders.com/product/550-pedal-set/

I currently have the OEM Bug pedals adapted to a Wilwood M/C and it's at a bit of an angle which causes it to bind on release, especially when cold.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby RS-60 mark » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:12 am

dearl -- Just so you are not misled, those are the same dune buggy pedals that have been around for many decades. They are not related to anything authentic or period correct for Porsche. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with the function of these pedals. They are the same ones I use, sold originally by NEAL. They are the same ones offered since forever by CNC ( https://www.cncbrakes.com/ ). And, from your link above, the pedals are apparently now available from the Chinese replicator: EMPI.
You can find these pedal sets available from any VW/Dune Buggy catalog source.

Again, these are perfectly suitable pedal sets. Short of replicating the original Porsche pedals (as some have done) I would choose the NEAL/CNC (or EMPI) pedals again, even though they are what they are: Dune Buggy pedals. :D
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby dlearl476 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:21 pm

RS-60 mark wrote:dearl -- Just so you are not misled, those are the same dune buggy pedals that have been around for many decades. They are not related to anything authentic or period correct for Porsche. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with the function of these pedals. They are the same ones I use, sold originally by NEAL. They are the same ones offered since forever by CNC ( https://www.cncbrakes.com/ ). And, from your link above, the pedals are apparently now available from the Chinese replicator: EMPI.
You can find these pedal sets available from any VW/Dune Buggy catalog source.

Again, these are perfectly suitable pedal sets. Short of replicating the original Porsche pedals (as some have done) I would choose the NEAL/CNC (or EMPI) pedals again, even though they are what they are: Dune Buggy pedals. :D



Yes, I know. But I actually got the pedals from Greg for less than anyone sells the CNCs for. They're 3/4 mounted now, along with a vintage Neal accelerator pedal. Dealing with Greg to resolve an issue with my new dual circuit MC, but I'm pretty happy with how it's going.

As mentioned before, this requires you to "take a giant step to the left," as the original VW-base pedal cluster brake M/C position is pretty much right behind the accelerator. My only regret is that I didn't do this at the same time I did my hydraulic clutch, so I'd only have one spare hole in my bulkhead rather than two. 8-[

When I get around to posting my winter mod thread, I'll include pics. Also included in the pedal portion of the festivities is a Tilton triple remote reservoir. Which reminds me: another regret that I have is that I didn't buy a 100' roll of blue, cloth braided brake fluid line back when it was $2/ft. It's $25/ft now! ](*,)
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby dlearl476 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:32 pm

Larry Jowdy wrote:When I installed the Tilton, I had to do a lot of brake line plumbing mainly because I installed a pressure regulator between the front and back brakes. I wear size 13 shoes and had no problem with the pedals.

That's good news. One worry I've had is the close proximity of the Neal gas pedal to the brake. If my size 11 clodhoppers get in the way, I'll go back to the OEM tunnel-mounted base and the ClassicBugParts reinforced lever and the billet wheel, which puts the accelerator over about 3" over the tunnel.
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby dlearl476 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:29 pm

RS-60 mark wrote:A note about the Neal / CNC brake and clutch pedal mounts: The two holes for attaching the MC to the pedal mount align in north/south pattern. That's fine for Girling and most aftermarket Master Cylinders for the clutch. But, the standard VW brake Master Cylinders have a east/west mounting hole alignment. So, if you have an existing VW Master Cylinder that you intend to reuse, then a little adapter plate for mounting needs to be concocted.


Man, I wish I'd have re-read this thread before I drilled the holes for my new pedals. May still get the adapter to turn my M/C right side up.

Btw, I went a-googling for the P/N and found this:

https://www.cncbrakes.com
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby SpyderMike » Wed May 01, 2019 11:33 am

SpyderMike wrote:I know that CNC makes an adapter for the typical master cylinder vertical attachments to VW's horizontals - P/N 1460.


From my earlier post...will this solve your issue?
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Re: Pedal Sets

Postby EEricson » Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 pm

Clicked that CNC link above and got a message saying they're out of business. WOW:
Manufacturers of Quality Pedals & Brake Components
By the Grace of God, we have been blessed with operating this business for 34 wonderful years. It hasn’t always been a picnic, but we have treasured this experience and the gift of working together as a family.

Unfortunately, time relentlessly marches on and the season has come for us to retire. We have closed and we have chosen not to sell our business.

We would like you to know how very grateful and blessed we are to have had you as a customer. We so very much appreciate your loyalty and dedication to us and our brand over the years. CNC was successful because we had great customers like you.

All our best to you and yours. May your endeavors be as rich as ours.
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