new engine/starter grinding

Engines, Transmissions, running gear, etc.

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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RS-60 mark » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:57 am

Ricardo

I think Carey has given you the most authoritative information you are going to get. And, if you hot-wired the starter directly to the battery as I suggested and find you still have the same problem, then you have proven to yourself the problem is not the wiring and most likely is the starter.

Considering what Carey has said; if you have warranty recourse with whoever you got the starter from then I'd begin that dialog immediately. Spyder driving weather in Northern CA doesn't get any better than it is right now! =D>
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:01 pm

I talked with HiTorque again. They are very helpful.

After telling them that the electrical system voltage drops look OK, the battery is fully charged and the starter is tightly mounted on the transmission, I asked for further troubleshooting ideas, rather than just send in the starter for bench testing or buying a new one again.

Their suggestions:
* pull the starter
* paint the pinion gear teeth with white out. (Normal gear has nine teeth.)
* replace, disconnect ignition, crank engine briefly --
* pull starter again and look at the wear pattern (missing white out).
* look for signs that the teeth are bottoming out on the flywheel ring gear "bottoms". Not good.
* look for signs that pinion gear is fully extending & engaging with flywheel ring gear teeth.

Call 'em back and report in...

I've found some good threads elsewhere analyzing grinding & the meshing of the pinion and ring gears. I think somehow the geometry of the gearing is a likely root cause.

example thread from PelicanParts:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/643149-hi-torque-starter-help.html

I'll be back here in a few days ---

BTW -- I have a CB Performance 2276cc engine. Hitorque said they'd recommend their extra torque IMI 101N model rather than the IMI 101 which I have. From what I've seen, the IMI 101 is commonly used.
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby DannyP » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:18 am

I have a high compression 2165, I am sure the regular IMI will be fine, you just need a good one!
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Sun May 05, 2013 10:09 am

Update --

I did the white-out test of the starter pinion gear. Result is that there is no gear problem.

So - next step --
I shipped the starter back to Hitorque yesterday. Hitorque has been quite good about helping track down the issue. They'll tear it down and see if they find a problem. Meanwhile I am hoping that a new starter will not have this problem.

More later after Hitorque reports what they find.

1.JPG
Starter pinion gear as removed. Almost no wear. No sign of grinding damage.


2.JPG
Starter pinion after white-out test. Where WO is missing is where there was contact. Note leading edge has very little contact even with the grinding.


3.JPG
Flywheel ring gear. No damage. White powder is from the WO test.
3.JPG (56.97 KiB) Viewed 13999 times
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby Weens24 » Tue May 07, 2013 8:37 pm

Do you have any VW friends with starters? Just borrow one. If not, they are $60 reman at most any part haus. Junk yards also have a vast supply. They should be less than $30 there. I know these are not the high-torque variety, but to me it seems like an easy way to see what's up.
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Mon May 13, 2013 1:36 pm

I replaced the starter w/ new Hitorque -- still grinding...

still working this --

frustrated / stumped
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby beck688 » Mon May 13, 2013 1:47 pm

What does the grinding sound like. Geared starters do sound different.
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Mon May 13, 2013 4:09 pm

Hard to describe a sound -- it sounds like gears grinding against each other... and it is not turning over the engine while making the noise.

For what it's worth, I made a sound file of the noise today, but don't know how to upload it. Made with an iPhone -- file type ".m4a"
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby Greenberg » Mon May 13, 2013 9:30 pm

Just a thought, but I may be way off here. Could it be a problem with your actual ignition? Could the electrical part of your ignition be trying to turn over the starter after it has already started the engine. I don't know if anyone has accidentally tried to start a car that is already running and you get a grinding noise when you do it.

Maybe??!!
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Mon May 13, 2013 11:15 pm

Nope...
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby beck688 » Tue May 14, 2013 8:08 am

Sounds like it is not engaging as gear on the stater is not moving towards the fly wheel enough.
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby beck688 » Tue May 14, 2013 8:20 am

The solenoid pushes the shaft out and the motor engages. On regular starters the starter motor is energized after the teeth engage, by virtue of the motor contactor being at the end of the solenoid stroke. It seems like you are describing the shaft spinning before it gets to the flywheel.

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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Tue May 14, 2013 9:00 am

Yeah... thanks to all for the ideas. I really appreciate this forum.

Basically, it seems to be some geometry problem between starter & flywheel --

I've had some good calls from the transmission maker & an experienced Spyder mechanic friend. Transmission maker says the bell housing is OK -- starter mounting surface & bolt holes are machined in a registered position. Starter is also well machined (Hitorque is a very nice product). If either one had machined surfaces issues, there would be a lot of them out there with the same issue and we'd all know of the problem & fixes.

Bottom line seems to be that it's not likely the root cause is with the bell housing or the starter. Now flywheels -- there are lots of issues with Chinese third party flywheels. I've been there; done that unfortunately with a Porsche 356 engine; had to replace the flywheel due to bad clutch pressure surface dimensional machining.

So, on to some geometry ideas --
* Time to count flywheel ring gear teeth (130 = 12V). Unlikely the problem.
* I have a line on a stock VW starter also -- will try that. Hopefully will work w/o grinding noise. If not, it's on to the flywheel.
* Scary idea -- enlarge starter mounting holes a bit to shift the starter up a smidgeon to improve (?) geometry.
* Worst case -- I may end up pulling engine to check & replace the flywheel. Bad flywheels do happen. Not there yet -- just sayin'.

I'll let this thread go dormant while I chase these and any other ideas. It'll take me a while. I'll post the successful outcome (I hope)

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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby Pat Downs » Thu May 16, 2013 7:01 am

I seriously doubt your issue is in the flywheel. I have seen this problem in the past and every time it comes down to the transmission case. The starter is indexed to close to the ring gear usually. In the past, I have machined the starter so it can be clocked further away from the ring gear and fixed the problem. I'm not saying this is the right approach to fix the issue but at the time, it was a better solution than pulling the trans apart. I'm also not saying that the flywheel isn't the issue, it very well could be but in my personal opinion, I doubt it.
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Re: new engine/starter grinding

Postby RicardoSwe » Thu May 16, 2013 9:03 am

Pat,

I think you are right. Thanks -- once again you've helped me out --

Your comment, passed on by Daniel at CBP, got me to thinking yesterday about the geometry of the starter pinion gear/ring gear. That led me to check the fit of the starter to the bell housing. I found that there is just a little play in the position, due to the mounting bolt holes size vs bolt OD. So the starter can move a little in & out radially from the flywheel ring gear.

I made a quick try last night at moving the starter out from the ring gear as far as it could move (not much). Upon cranking, it seemed better, with only 1 "grind" out of several cranks. I'll play with it a bit more. I can enlarge the starter mounting holes very slightly, to allow a bit more "adjustment", as needed.

The Hitorque starter does not use the bell housing starter brass bushing, so apparently it can be slightly off from the ideal pinion/ring gear radial "offset".

So ---- I think this is it. I'll check some more.

Thanks again ------


BTW -- as you know already -- I confirmed the flywheel has 130 teeth, i.e. 12V type. I'm sure I counted the teeth during assembly, just to be sure, but I didn't make note of it.
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