Exploding Oil Filter

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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RVosari » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:04 am

Hey Al...you said

"I'm using a Phram (which is supposed to be the worst) and I have a oil pressure gauge on it. On cold starts, I do see the pressure go up very high until it warms up."

How high is high...in psi [:0]

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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby albaran » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:27 am

I don't recall exactly how high it goes, but I recall around 70-80 + being the number. As soon as it gets warm, I will bring the car down from the lift it is being stored on and give you a better number. I have the Wix racing filter ready to go.

After reading all of the replies, it seems that the original poster had a defective filter which I am sure is very rare.
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RS-60 mark » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:05 am

albaran -- I have a separate VDO dash gauge, the dial only goes up to 70. The "combi" dash gauges I've seen on some 550s that have an oil pressure dial only go up to 80. So when you say you have cold oil pressures of 70-80+ I wonder where you are reading those pressures because a normal dash gauge would be "pegged".

In your Mar 31 post I think you imply you have a remote gauge located near the filter? If so, is that where you are reading the 70-80? And if so, it may well be the pressure there is significantly higher than inside the engine case oil gallery where a conventional oil pressure sending unit is normally located. And you might expect the pressure at the filter will be significantly different between the input side and output side of the filter.

If the pressure is 70-80 on the output side of the filter, that doesn't sound to me like it is too high. The oil still has to fight it's way through the thermostat and through the remote cooler and all the way back through the input port of the engine case. Once inside the engine case, only then is it pressure regulated by the relief valve to something like (on my VDO dash gauge) 40-50psi on 50* temperature 20-50wt at 1500-2000 rpm with 26mm pump and similar external oil plumbing as you have.

On the other hand, if the 70-80+ pressure you are referring to is actually reading from inside the engine case main oil gallery, then we might want to look for reasons why. Maybe a stuck relief valve or maybe you have an adjustable relief valve that is miss-adjusted. Maybe the oil is too thick or the pump is too big and the relief valve is overwhelmed.

So for now, tell us where you are reading the 70-80+.
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RVosari » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:54 pm

I tested my new Pat Downs motor after break-in with an accurate mechanical gauge in the pump galley. With an OAT of around 60 ℉ and the motor cold… using Pennzoil 20-50 oil, I saw around 60 psi at 950-1000 RPM.

Once the temperature was up to 175-180 ℉; idle was 24 psi and 5500 RPM around 60 psi.

If I rev-ed the engine cold (which I never do)…it could have shown over 70 psi.

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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby mason » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:25 pm

Sorry to hear about the drama. It must have been quite a pop!

I went through a similar issue when I first purchased my spyder. The previous owner struggled with oil leaks. Oil pressure at startup exceeded 60 psi at idle, and went well over 80 psi by 3000 rpm. It caused the filter seal as well as many of the lines to leak copious amounts of oil. The original recommendation for the engine was also Kendall 20-50. I have a Type 1 2332cc, with an external oil filter.

I made a few changes to solve the issue:
- I installed an oil pressure gauge. (An old 356 unit that looks period correct).
- I replaced the overly heavy springs for the oil bypass pistons with standard. I think this was worth about 20psi of oil pressure drop at cold start.
- I did a lot of research on actual cold and hot oil viscosity (not just weight, but the actual flow rates from their respective spec sheets). The viscosities are actually significantly different for oil marketed as the same weight. Spec sheets list the true viscosity flow. I looked at spec sheets for dozens of brands. I finally settled on Mobil 1 15w-50. It is less viscous when cold, but still provides great warm viscosity. It also has a high dose of Zinc for your tappets (1300 ppm), and is available at Walmart for $25 for a 5 qt jug.
- I switched to the WIX 51515R oil filter.

There are still some drips occasionally from the bottom of the case, but the pressure related leaks are nearly all gone.

These engines do not need super-high oil pressure. I've seen articles on spyderclub indicating exactly how much is necessary per 1000rpm, you can look it up. My target was for hot engine oil pressure at idle to be about 20 psi. At cold startup I see a little over 40 psi at idle.

Good luck, and enjoy the weather as it warms up!
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RVosari » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:32 am

Leaks...for what its worth my Downs motor has about 4800 miles on the clock...there are 0 leaks. I don't use any outboard coolers or filters, or "breathers".

If I drive the car hard I will get a drop overnight from the filler draft tube, but that's all. :)

As for ZDDP...many "performance oils" have dropped to 600 ppm without much fanfare...so it bears checking on a regular basis !

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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby albaran » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:46 am

rs-60 mark- If you look at the picture I posted, you will see the inline gauge which reads 0-100. My response of how high it hits when cold was from memory which at my age (74) is not what it used to be but when the weather warms up I will give you a more accurate response. Keep in mind that these small gauges are not as accurate as a VDO with a sending unit.
However, the original post still has not had his question answered. Why did the Wix racing filter come apart?
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RVosari » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:17 am

Al,

25 years ago,few new cars used 5W oils...but now most pedestrian new cars do ! They may show a big 40 psi cold if that. If my 2015 Jetta (4cyl turbo) motor (22K miles) sits for a few weeks in the winter you can hear bearing noise and lifter clatter on start-up :(

25 years ago most oil filters could handle 100 psi...race filters 150 psi...likely filter cos have "value engineered" their products to reflect the new lower pressures [8D]

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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RS-60 mark » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:47 am

Albaran -- I do now see what you've confirmed to be a gauge next to the filter in your picture. First off, I don't think there is much meaningful difference in accuracy between the mechanical pressure gauge and the VDO "electric" gauge. Neither are high precision instruments, but they equally provide enough resolution for the purpose intended. If both gauges were installed in the same place, I believe they would both read about the same thing. Which is the motive for my question: where are you sensing the oil pressure; at the oil filter, or in the engine case oil intake gallery? I don't know without experiment, but I expect the oil pressure sensed at those two places would be different (higher at the filter).

You have raised cause for another question: Age induced memory -- or lack of it :sadnana: At one month short of 69, I am certainly afflicted too. So just to make sure what I said about my oil pressure in my post above was correct (a statement made from suspect recollection), I went out just now and started the spyder. It is about 50* in the garage. My cold oil pressure sensed at the engine case oil intake gallery is about 45psi at 1000, 2000, 3000 rpm. This tells me that my pressure relief valve must be operating and my pressure control valve is functioning at 45psi.

I have an adjustable pressure control valve. So one can't compare my oil pressure if they have a stock control valve and spring. I have absolutely no recollection what method I used for adjustment when I installed the control valve during the engine build 15 years ago. But my logic was likely to set it "light" to start with and "tighten" if necessary. It is likely that logic resulted in 45psi to start with, and since there would never be a requirement for more than 45psi, the adjustment has been where it is ever since.
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RVosari » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:23 pm

RS...do you have one of these ...that acts on the relief valve spring ?

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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RS-60 mark » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:18 am

ReV: Yes, that is the thing, but it adjusts against control valve spring. I installed it during the engine build without any experience to know one way or another if it was a good idea. Now, looking back, I don't think it was a bad idea but I also don't think it is necessary on a new engine.

We've drifted way off the topic of exploding filters, so to continue drifting: Someone might be interested in this pictorial on how the oiling system works and and functions of relief valve and control valve: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=280293
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby Biker2 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:09 am

Thanks for more replies.....

Pat recommended I use 5-30 oil, says that is what he uses in his own car. I checked my build sheets that came with the engine and it says 20-50 which is what I had in it.

Yes it was a loud POP!

I filled it with 5-30 this weekend and it seems fine now, no leaks and runs well. No leaks at all.

Could have been a defective filter, hard to tell.
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby RBP » Mon May 01, 2017 4:50 am

It seems odd. Biker2, as you say you are running a WIX 51515R. That filter should have burst rating to 500 PSI and a built in bypass valve that will open if the differential pressure across the filter media exceeds 8 - 11 PSI. Should cold start-up DP with thick 20 - 50 oil exceed the 8 - 11 PSI the filter should automatically open to bypass. Must have been a defective can.
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby Larry Jowdy » Mon May 01, 2017 8:30 am

I spent a lot of time researching info from WIX and discovered that they make a filter 51622 or 1622 if it's a NAPA filter. This filter is specified as a transmission filter but WIX said it is often used as an oil filter by the racing community and is still used in that capacity. I now use that filter on my LS2 Chevy powered sand rail. Here's the comparison information

Part Number: 51515R
UPC Number: 765809129054
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Service: Lube
Type: Full Flow
Media: Enhanced Cellulose
Height: 5.17 (131)*
Outer Diameter Top: 3.6 (91)*
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed:
Thread Size: 3/4-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 8-11
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Max Flow Rate: 28 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 61





Part Number: 51622
UPC Number: 765809516229
Style: Spin-On Transmission Filter
Service: Transmission
Type: Full Flow
Media: Enhanced Cellulose
Height: 5.216(132)*
Outer Diameter Top: 3.691(94)*
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed:
Thread Size: 3/4-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 7-9
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Burst Pressure-PSI: 500
Max Flow Rate: 7-9 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 28
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Re: Exploding Oil Filter

Postby albaran » Sat May 06, 2017 3:13 pm

You guys scared me into replacing the cheapo Fram PH8A with the Wix racing filter.

The earlier discussion was about the oil pressure when cold. After startup and taking a few seconds to fill the oil filter, my inline gauge ( which is after the filter) read around 70 and briefly hit 90 with elevated revs. I am guessing that the bypass valve is kicking in at this point. I then took a sample of the oil from the filter and am sending it out to Wix for analysis.

The previous post shows a bypass valve setting of 18 psi. Does this mean that the oil is bypassing the media in the filter most of the time?
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