Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

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Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby JRGilbert » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:06 pm

I have a 1997 Vintage Spyder. This car was preped to race the La Panamericana Carrera in 2007 and ran that year.

The front wheels are 1 1/2" outside the fenders. The car is running 6" rims with 195 series tires. I know these are too big. Set back is about 3 3/4".
The car has a ball joint front end (king pin).

Front brakes are Airkewld FDK-3001S with 4 piston Wilwood calipers.

Looking at he brake installation; there is no way to move the wheel back. I have a new set on 4 1/2" wheels, but that will not get the 165 tires inside the fender.
The problem seems to be the brake setup.

What brake systems are being used that allow everything to fit in it's proper place?

Thanks,
Jim
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby EEricson » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:15 pm

Noob here so probably others will have other answers but the front wheels on mine are 4.5 inches wide, rears 5.5, and with 185/60s the fronts just about fit. Six-inch wheels would set them outside the fender.

That said, it is possible to reset the wheel offset so they "tuck" better under the fenders. There's a shop in CA that does this. Danny P did his own (steel) wide-fives a couple years ago on his Vintage. Not an operation for beginners.
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby beck688 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:29 pm

Nitpik can't be ball joint and king pin. You might look into having the offset changed on the wheels
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby egrant5329 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:14 am

Is your front bolt pattern 5x205mm if so the Airkewld brakes add another ~0.4" inches on top of the wider wheels. Call Greg Leach at Vintage. He can tell you what you need. He supplied my wheels and disc brake conversion. My rear wheels had to have the offset changed because I have long axles.
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby JRGilbert » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:42 am

I've attached a photo that shows the problem
Thanks,
JIm
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small 550.jpg
Photo of 550, 2007. See front tire problem
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby JRGilbert » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:48 am

Thank you all.
I was aware of the wheel/tire requirements.
Yes, it's obvious that the Airkewld brake package is wider.
I really hate to give up the 4 piston calipers.
There must be some modification to what I have that will work.

Is anyone else using Airkeweld brakes?

Thanks,
Jim
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby egrant5329 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:32 am

Jim,
I believe DannyP had switched from CSP to Airkewld, but I don't think he is on the SC much these days. Carey Hines at Special Editions was a big fan of AirKewld brakes. You might call and see what he suggests.

I believe most of us run 4.5" up front and if you move the offset of the 6" wheels like I did with my rear 5.5" wide fives, I think you will have clearance issues on the inside of the wheel. I know my 4.5" front wheels rub occasionally when turning hard to the left. So other than moving the offset or getting more narrow wheels, that leaves narrowing the front end (sounds very expensive) or narrowing the disc brake setup or widening the fenders. None of those are probably appealing if you are racing the car like in the pic.
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby EEricson » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:31 am

I believe Danny P did narrow the beam on his new Vintage build. But the old one worked well after he changed the offset of the front wheels.

Making six-inch wide rims fit up front on a standard Spyder would seem an engineering problem of a high order. The originals had 4-inch rims!
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby RVosari » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:55 pm

If you don’t have “bump rubber” on your front shocks you will bang the body-work when the wheel hits things like recessed manhole covers…and eventually you will crack the body-work ! :(

My Beck originally came with 4.5 inch Mangels rims in the front. Since 3 out of 4 were not “round” a replacement rim type was in order.

The 4.5” rims will not correctly “seat” a 185 tire or wider…the tire will simply roll off the rim, unless it is mechanically attached (rim-screws)

Jongbloed Wheels in Morgan Hill, CA can resize and change your off-set…but not on every rim type…

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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby Carlos G » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:20 pm

What are these rubber bumps that you speak of ReV?

I have the Ridetech shocks and was given some rubber bumpers to prevent the tires hitting the fenders. BUT, the stops are taller than the about of travel that I have left on the shock when the car is sitting still. I figured that this would negated the damping of the shock and I'd just be riding on rubber bumpers???

My ultimate plan is to have my steel rim centers moved out 3/16 - 1/4". I'm also running 185s. I would like to find a 175 or 165 with the same height and make as the rears.
What are you running for wheels and tires, ReV?

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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby RVosari » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:30 pm

The system will not allow a load of a Shock Stop Photo...but you need to trim the rubber/phenolic or whatever it is to prevent the shock from bottoming out (full compression).,while still providing ample suspension travel.


Make sure that you see run out parameters on any modified wheels before you pay for the work...if they are not round/concentric don't waste your time...you will never get rid of the associated vibration via balancing !

I run the CiP custom SS wheels {Kidney Bean}...5 inch width...they are near zero run-out :)

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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby egrant5329 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:50 am

RVosari wrote: The 4.5” rims will not correctly “seat” a 185 tire or wider…the tire will simply roll off the rim, unless it is mechanically attached (rim-screws)
ReV


Rev,
As I understand it, old Becks inner front passenger fender well is slightly off due to the car the molds they were taken from having a bad repair and rub just a slight bit when turned hard to the left. You can see when mine has hit/rubbed countless times, but so far no cracking after 31 years. Also, I think most of us run 185s on our 4.5" rims (without rim screws) and I have yet to hear of anyones coming off. Much to my surprise on my wide-5s that I bought from Greg, 3 out of 4 didn't require a single weight when they were balanced. One required just a small weight.
If I remember correctly, Stocton Wheel were the ones who moved my offset on my rear wheels.
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby RVosari » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:13 am

Recall Mr. Gilbert's situation:

The front wheels are 1 1/2" outside the fenders. The car is running 6" rims with 195 series tires. I know these are too big. Set back is about 3 3/4".
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you at 1.5" outside the fenders ?

Check any tire manufacturer for a 185 ...you will find that minimum recommended is 5 inches wide !

I have seen 2 Spyders with cracks developing in the last 6 months...both were Becks with 185 front tires. These Becks were built in 2004-2005.

I have 0 experience/interest with the so called wide 5-s [8D]

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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby egrant5329 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:43 am

Rev,
I know the tire companies recommend 5" on the 185s, but so far I have't heard of anyone in the group having that issue yet. Even with the low tire pressure most run, they seem to stay on.

Where did the cracks develop on the Becks? My wheels don't stick outside the fender, but it does hit and rub on the inside. In NH I drive on some of the most horrible frost heave cracked roads with gaping potholes and I drive on a dirt roads that more often than not have the washboard effect, which is a real door jarrer even at slow speeds. Truthfully I am shocked that I haven't had cracking over the years.

The wide-5 Mangle look is what I tend to like the best. I am tempted to pick up the new aluminum version everyone is selling these days. Unfortunately everything is a trade off, kind of like running the brakes and wider wheels Mr. Gilbert likes causes the wheels to not fit under the fender. If I want the aluminum wide-5s I'll have to run 4.5" on all 4 to make them fit or...switch from long hubs to short hubs in the back to get the 5.5" wheels. I do like the JBW SMA wheels or CIP1 SS SUPER SPEED wheels that you run better than most of the other non-mangle looking wheels. It is nice to see something a little different from time to time.
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Re: Front wheels outside fenders. What's the fix?

Postby RVosari » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:18 am

Both had spider cracks developing around the driver's side front fender lip.

Cranking up the front suspension will mitigate contact, but will affect handling :(

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